We now get a good look at the Savage Reservation, which is continually juxtaposed with the society of the Brave New World.
It is quite obvious how these two societies are different. A more interesting question would be about the SIMILARITIES Huxley is trying to show us between these two worlds, neither of which John is fully a member.
If you don't like that question, then work on this one. How is John different from the people in the Savage Reservation AND how is he going to be different from the people in the Brave New World when he goes there to visit?
I worked a little on both of the questions for these three chapters. First I found two examples of similarities between the two worlds. Both similarities I found were said by Lenina. In Chapter 7 after they climbed the mesa they emerged into the sunlight. The top of the mesa was like a flat deck of stone. This reminded Lenina of the Charing-T Tower back in her world. Another example I found was how Lenina related the drums to the synthetic noises played at the Solidarity Services. Lastly, maybe Huxley is trying to show that there are exceptions to every society. John is the exception to the Reservation as Bernard and Helmholtz are the exceptions to their society. An example I found for how John is different from the people at the Reservation is how his complexion has been a barrier between him and the people. John says, "they disliked me for my complexion. It's always been like that. Always." Also John's mother is from the "Other Place" and he can read while the other kids cannot. He somehow cannot connect to the other kids on the Reservation and is forced to participate in what are supposed to be group activities alone. I think when John goes to the the "Other World", it will be hard for him to transition into a totally different lifestyle. He is used to a dirty, relaxed, slow-paced society and he will be opened up to a world of cleanliness, preciseness, and Ford.
ReplyDeleteJohn is different from all the other people in the reservation because his mother was originally from the outside world. She got stuck in the reservation. John also has pale skin and blonde hair, much different than the dark skin and black hair of the native savages. When he goes to the brave new world to visit he will be totally different than everyone else because he was born, not decanted. He was from the reservation, so he didn't receive hypnopaedia or other conditioning. I don't think he would have a social class, so he would be even more of an outcast.
ReplyDeleteDeep down both societies are governed by the laws of human nature (as is every society created by humans). Both groups regard those who are different from them with disdain and guarded trepidation. The savages ostracize John because he has a fairer complexion they do and he is "of the other place" despite the fact that he was born in the savage reservation. Likewise Bernard's compatriots regard him with apprehension because he is abnormally short and reclusive. Another parallel between the two groups is that they both believe themselves to be the more virtuous of the two and are repulsed by the customs of the other. Also, they both have a very fragmented idea of the past. The savages' oral histories and legends have garbled much of their past, while the history of the World State is even further hidden from its inhabitants who view the idea of "past" as being profane. I think what Huxley is trying to tell us that a utopia is impossible because no matter how perfectly a society is engineered it will always be flawed. That flaw lies not within the society's conception, but within our own human nature. As Cassius said, "The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, but in ourselves," My apologies for the cliché.
ReplyDeleteIn chapter 7, I noticed a few similarities between the savage reservation and the Brave New World. One is when Lenina starts to hyperventilate because she has left her soma behind. She realizes that the beating of the drums atop the mesa remind her of her world. She shuts her eyes and lets the music take over, the music that sounds just like that of the Solidarity Services and Ford's Day celebrations. I thought it was interesting how the ceremony they had with the snakes and the sacrifice related so closely to the Bible. Matthew, chapter 27 verse 26 says, "Then he released Barabbas to them, but after he had Jesus scourged, he handed him over to be crucified." Jesus was also whipped and scourged, just like the sacrifice in Brave New World. So I also found it ironic that a painted image of the crucifixion of Jesus rose from the ground during this sacrificial ceremony. By the way, I've realized that Huxley has mentioned snakes in these chapters quite a few times... snakes are a universal symbol for evil, so I think he is referring to the Reservation. I won't say much about how John is different because this post is kinda long, but I realized right when we were introduced to him that he would be considered different, even in our own world today. John says he wishes he could have been the sacrifice because he would've survived longer. He would've gone around as many as fifteen times, while the other only made seven. He should've been in that man's place. "They could have had twice as much blood from me. The multitudinous seas incarnadine. But they wouldn't let me. They disliked me for my complexion. It's always been like that. Always."
ReplyDeleteI also have one question... does anyone think John's father could be the Director? It seems as though Huxley is hinting that they are the same person, but I wasn't sure.
ReplyDeleteMy question is why would the other community want to have John or allow him to come in? My thinking is that John could turn people in the wrong direction. He might put ideas into other peoples heads that might not be wanted. Such as being an example of having a mother and being born, not decanted. They might start thinking differently when they see someone like that. But on the other hand, they might be so conditioned that they will not like John and not welcome him in if he has had such a different life.
ReplyDeleteJohn is very different from the other characters on the reserve. The fact that his mother is from the other world, does not help him to get along with the other boys his age. The fact that he is different is shown in many different ways, first the fact that he is not allowed to partake in the manhood ceremony, and that is wants to be alone and who is mother is.
ReplyDeleteAside from those subjects I just wanted to point out, how can Lennina be so judgemental saying that the women feeding their children was indecent and that she had to turn away, yet in her society people have sexual relations with everyone they want they do not abstain from sexual relations with just one person. Another thing that frightened me was they way they reacted to the sight of the old man. The way that they describe the reserve, sounds like a very dirty place, but they more they continued to talk about the filth and grime I began to wonder if it is really cleaner than they are describing it but it is dirtier than their society.
My question is; How do the people on the savage reserve seem to know so much about religion, and the world, I thought they were illiterate, do they just know it from the stories that were passed down from family to family? Also do they think that the world outside of the reserve, past the electric fence, is savage or more reserved than thier?
@Amy I to think that John's father is the Director, because of the story that we previously learned of about his girlfriend being lost while they were visiting the reserve years before.
Similarities that exist in both worlds include the fact that both worlds have and abide by certain particular laws. Both worlds also have a certain singular 'viewpoint' on things. Anyone who doesn't follow the laws or has a different nonsingular viewpoint on things can be very well regarded as different or as a 'creature', by the others who inhabit the same world.
ReplyDeleteThe people who live within the Savage Reservation regard John as an outsider because he has a more deviant form and that he belongs to the Other Place. The people who live within the Brave New World regard Bernard as an outsider because he's 'noticeably' short and acts different from everybody else. Those are just a few examples of how both worlds are similar in the way they identify and treat different 'creatures'.
My small question asks, why is [i]soma[/i] italicized? Does it cue the reader to say it in a certain particular way?
@Amy: I concur! I am receiving faint hints from page 118 and page 138 that Huxley is trying to point out who John's father is.
I think if John were to enter into the Brave New World, the people who already live there would kind of be thrown for a bit of a loop. Those people have never associated with individuals that are different from them in the many ways that John is. We haven't really been told about his appearance in comparison to the castes in the brave new world, but we already know that his pale skin and blonde hair is different from the appearance of his people. Even still, I think that John could possibly have an advantage in the brave new world, by having knowledge of the Reservation and the way that 'natural life' occurs and works, seeing that he is a product of natural birth, and not being decanted. He is very simialr to Helmholtz in this way. (or was it Bernard? I got them mixed up in my last post. Helmhotz has mental excess, right?) I think if John were to enter the Other Place and had the opportunity to talk a bit with Helmholtz, they could band together and share ideas about the different ideas they have about the way society and civilization should be conducted. This could be a step forward into instituting these ideas into life in the brave new world.
ReplyDeleteQuestion: I know that the snake is a universal symbol for evil, but can anyone explain the direct significance of them in the ceremony?? That was the one element of the cereminy that I didn't quite understand.
Some connections to both societies are made by Lenina. She says the music "performance" by the natives reminds her of the lower-caste Community Sing at first. She says the drums remind her of the "synthetic noise" at the Solidarity Service. Both societies have a form of religion: worshiping Ford and Christianity at the Savage Reservation. Both places are aware of Shakespeare. Both places do believe in their own versions of what is considered "civilized". In Linda's case, she is still with the brave new world, but everyone else at the reservation thinks the way they live is as civilized as they come. In the words of John, "If one's different, one's bound to be lonely" and in both societies, loneliness is not a good thing. It causes other people around them to dislike or mistrust the lonely person - John or Bernard.
ReplyDeleteMy question: If Linda is so obsessed with remembering/living her life the way it was before she got caught in the reservation, why wouldn't she be more intent on returning with Bernard and Lenina? It didn't seem like she was trying very hard to return to something she clearly misses.
In chapters 7-9 some of the similarities between the two worlds are that both groups of people are illiterate in a sense. The new world people can read letters but have nothing to read and the people on the reservation just can't read in general. Another similarity is the dance at the reservation and the community sing. Both are used to create a sense of community. The next similarity is between the synthetic noise and the drums at the dance. Lenina says that the drums remind her of the synthetic noise because it blocks everything out.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone think that Bernard might not be doing the service that he thinks he is to John by bring him back to civilization?
These two worlds are alike because they have a set idea on what a "perfect" person is. They wouldn't let John partake in certain activities because he wasn't like everyone else. They have certain standards in each society. For example in the reservation people would make fun of John when he had holes in his clothes because Linda didn't know how to patch them. The standard in the Brave New World is when clothes have holes in them they would be expected to throw them away and get new ones, "The more stitches the less riches." In both societies if you don't follow these expectations then you will be judged and ridiculed.
ReplyDelete-Dani
Okay, question. In the first few pages, Lenina states how small she feels against the mesa when she has to walk. Is it possible that her time with Bernard has caused a slight change of her views? Or is she telling us that she doesn't know what to do without technology?
ReplyDeleteOne way that I noticed that Huxley made the reservation and the new world similar is that if you or your family is a little different then they are rejected. Also, that being alont is kind of weird, especially in the new world.
ReplyDeleteJohn is different from the people in the reservation because he knows how to read and his mother is from the new world. Because he's from the new world he looks different than everyone else. Therefore people shun him. But if he went to the new world I think the shunning would almost be worse. Mainly because he was born somewhere else and he was born by a person, not from a test tube. He's also going to look a little different than everyone else because he has lived in the reservation for all of his life, he didn't mature as fast as them and probably isn't near as samrt either. He also hasn't had all of the conditioning that the other kids have had. He also isn't familiar with their "customs".
-Nathan
John is a mixture of both Reservation and World State cultures. The stark contrast of both these cultures in his being would most likely result in rejected in the World State just as he is on the reservation. His natural birth and lack of conditioning ostracize him from the World State while his mother's reputation/actions and his physical differences ostracize him from the Reservation. I do find it ironic, however, that both the Reservation and World State seem to have in common a tendency to shun and even fear those who are different, in spite of the vast differences between them.
ReplyDeleteBoth the resorvation and the normal society both dislike outsiders. The normal society is accustomed to having mutilple partners while the resorvation is monogamous and having more than one mate is being antisocial, much like our society right now. Both the resorvation and the society hate outsidersamd people who are different, which is why Linda and John arent normal members of the resorvation. Both societies believe that theirs is the best way to go about life, and think that any other way is revolting
ReplyDeletePoor John, he's doesn't fit in anywhere. On the reservation, his physical differences (his pale complexion, blond hair, and blue eyes) and mental differences (his ability to read and speak English) keep him from ever being a real part of society, as shown when he recalls not being able to go on a 'spirit quest' with the other Indian boys. Also, the fact that his mother is having sexual relations with the men in the village (even when they are married) doesn't really help his status.
ReplyDeleteHe surely won't fit in back in London because 1. he has a mother (which is just plan wacky to the people of the Brave New World) 2. he can spout of William Shakespeare 3. he grew up on a Savage Reservation and has no experience with modern conveniences and 4. even though he doesn't have experience with modern technology, he is going to be far more experienced and have a much more mature understanding of life and emotions.
Also, I'd just like to point out that I thought there were definite similarities between John and both Bernard and Helmholtz. Both John and Bernard are outcasts because of their physical differences, yet both want to be included in their community. Then, John is also different because, you could say, he has mental excess like Helmholtz. John is far more aware of the world and is very well read compared to the average person in Brave New World.
@ Amy: Yes, the director is John's father.
@ Abby and Katie: I think that Bernard really doesn't care about John and Linda's well-being, he just wants to use them for his own agenda...which in my opinion is to possibly blackmail the Director or just to kind of shake up the stability of the Brave New World. Also, I have no idea why the Director and his minions are letting Bernard bring John and Linda back (except for 'science'), it sounds to me like a shady plot to lock them up in a lab and experiment on them.
Just as John does not fit in with the society of the Savage Reservation, he would not fit in very well in the Brave New world. The other boys in the reservation tortured John because of his white skin and light hair. They called him "the son of the she-dog", mocking both him and his mother. They physically bullied him and constantly excluded him.
ReplyDeleteIn the World State culture, he would receive the same treatment. He has not been conditioned and is unfamiliar with everything that is expected of him in this society. He was born, not decanted, and actually has a mother. These facts would disgust everyone, just as they disgust Lenina and even Bernard. If this society discovered that the Director had been viviparous and fathered John, their world would come crashing down around them, creating only more problems for John.
-Lindsey Miyazaki
As an incredibly general comparison, it can be said that both the Savage Reservation and London are opposite yet equally extreme ends of the same spectrum. In the civilized world, we constantly see the fine-tuned workings of the great machine that is the Community. But in the Reservation, Huxley openly flaunts the shapeless mass of discord that squalor and dereliction create.
ReplyDeleteOn a different and more specific note, it is made clear that both societies show an innate cruelty towards anything different. As Fanny chided Lenina for her exclusiveness, the reservation's women beat Linda for her promiscuity. John is not considered a true member of the Malpais people just as Bernard is looked down upon by his peers.
While he plays with and is raised among the other children, John is not allowed to partake in their most sacred rituals of culture and identity. He is chased away from the kiva with stones and calls of "white-hair" and "son of the she-dog."
Bernard in turn suffers similar (yet admittedly more subtle) treatment in his world. He is forever itched by qualms about his size and rumors about his alcohol-tainted blood surrogate.
Both in John's case and Bernard's; both in Malpais and in London, to be different is to be an outcast.
John was out-casted by his fellow "savages" because he was an outsider. He was different (like Bernard). His skin was pale and compared to the native people, this was very strange. He was not able to camping with the other boys, and was even the victim of stones. Huxley is trying to juxtapose Bernard and John. With John being an out-cast of society, it is going to be easier to leave his home. Likewise it will be easier for Bernard to question and leave his "perfect world". John will react to the "civilized" world the same way the Bernard did to the "savage world. (Imagine that) He will think of their customs strange and will be appalled by their behavior. It will be something like when Christopher Columbus came to the New World. Huxley is drawing a parallelism with this event. John's reaction will ultimately change Bernard's mindset on society and change his world-view. Bernard will start to see the flaws of his society through a stranger's eyes.
ReplyDeleteThere were several similarities shared by the two societies that were revealed during chapter 7. The one that I found was the most obvious was the dancing ritual with the drums. Huxley clues us in by giving us, in great detail, a description of how Lenina reacts to the music and drums, the way it reminds her of the dancing clubs back in the "Other World". Additionally, the ritual was also very religious, which was much like the Solidarity meetings, except more like an actual religious gathering and not some sort of deranged, sex-driven cult. The final similarity that I noticed was when John talked about how the other Indians judged him for his complexion. This shows the discriminatory views of the "Savages" and in a way almost makes them look less savage because they share some of the same ideas as those of the civilized world. I think that Huxley may be hinting towards us that the society that we live in now, in 2010, is actually much like the "civilized society" in his book and that we really aren't that far from it and all of the different prejudices that encompass it.
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot more similarities between the two societies than i first thought there would be. First of all, both societies are very judgmental of people who are different from them. John is left out and judged because his skin complexion isn't dark like the rest of the people in the society. In his childhood, he was also judged for having a mother who was sleeping with other people's husbands. Another similarity between the two societies is there lack of knowledge on their own history. For the most part, neither of them have any idea why they do the things they do, such as with the Solidarity meetings in the New World and the religious sacrifices on the reservation. The people are not educated in either society. Neither of the societies know mush about the other, so that is why they dislike outsiders. It is human nature to be wary and skeptical of people that you don't know or understand. I think it is fair to say that Huxley is trying to show us the problems with every society. Although some problems may be different depending on the society, everyone has them. Huxley is trying to show us that right now in our world, our community has similar issues as these two made up societies in the book.
ReplyDeleteJohn has been through quite a lot, especially in his childhood. When John goes to this new society, I think that he will be extremely frightened of what this world is like. I think that Linda though, will be even more frightened, because she used to live in this world. John has only heard stories, while Linda has endured what it was and she will have to face her past again.
ReplyDeleteEach society has its outcasts. Each of the outcasts in society feels different because of their physical appearances. For Bernard, it is his height and for John it is his skin color and hair color. But there is more than physical aspects that separate them from everyone else.
When Bernard brings John back to Bernard’s world, will Bernard, Helmholtz, and John form a group that could stop the society from what it is currently doing? If John learns that his father is the Director, there may be some serious problems with him going against his father.
Question: When Linda goes back, will anybody remember her? And what do you think they would do if they met her again.
The two society both frown upon those who are different. They exclude those who are different. John is different from everyone in the society cause he born in Malpais and had a mother who slept around with many guys. John was treated cruel and was beaten and whipped because he was different. He also wasn't allowed to do the the same thing as the other boys did.
ReplyDeleteI find this savage reservation to be quite disturbing, especially when they murder the boy in the name of Jesus, but at the same time I think we also see something about the development of this society. What we see is that society can cause things to go both ways. In one way it can cause a society to become brainless people in a caste system unable to think, and without its influence it can cause once civilized people to become savages.
ReplyDeleteI found this very interesting. The other interesting thing i found was how the boy was being pulled in two directions causing him to have kind of split personality.
One side of him is a savage who tries to kill the man that his mother is with, and the other part of him dreams of the brave new world that his mom so often refers to. One part of him is civilized and knows how to read and the other part of him wants to be accepted by the uncivilized bunch of savages. This is what I came to understand about this savage reservation and its contrast to society during the reading.